01: Ian Kissick on imposter syndrome, competitions and not being an expert

In this episode I'm joined by Ian Kissick (he/him), Founder of Formative Coffee and Winner of the 2023 UK Barista Championships.

EPISODE LINKS
- Ian on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ian_kissick/ or https://www.instagram.com/formativecoffee/
- Formative Coffee's website: https://formative.coffee/
- Watch Ian's winning UK Barista Championship routine: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Crts5iosZmd/utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MmJiY2I4NDBkZg==
- Coffee Bingo fundraiser for Ian's trip to the World Coffee Championships: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/coffee-bingo-2-tickets-627116049987
- Hello Judges podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0YNlwXXlDBGIPtHSHxNzWB?si=c2369729c39f48f1

PODCAST LINKS
- Follow + contact Big Slurp Energy on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigslurpenergy/
- Buy a sticker + support the pod: https://ko-fi.com/s/e548e9de8b
And, if you've got a minute to rate/review the podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, that would be v nice!

UK MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES:
I'm in the process of building a list of resources, but for now you can find some linked here: https://linktr.ee/bigslurpenergy

CREDITS
Produced by Helena Gloeckner
Podcast Artwork by Payta Easton  https://www.instagram.com/payta_/

A transcript of this episode can be found here: https://bigslurpenergy.buzzsprout.com/2162161/12855206-01-ian-kissick-on-imposter-syndrome-competitions-and-not-being-an-expert

*Tiramisu recipe coming soon*

⭐️ I'm building a directory of local UK mental health and therapy resources! If you know about something people can access in your area, you can contribute to the list by emailing bigslurpenergypodcast@gmail.com, or DM me on instagram @bigslurpenergy ⭐️

Transcript

Helena: 0:06

Well, hey there, welcome to Big Slurp Energy, a podcast about specialty coffee and mental health. I'm Helena and in each episode I invite on an interesting person from the coffee industry for a nice little chat. My guest this episode is Ian Kissick. Ian is the owner of Formative Coffee and he's also the winner of this year's UK Barista Championship. We had a really interesting conversation about impostor syndrome, humility and the emotional rollercoaster that is coffee competitions. And listen to the end to hear Ian's own recipe for making instant coffee. No spoilers for now. I really hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Ian kissick. Hi, Ian, how are you?

Ian: 0:57

Hey, I'm great. How are you doing?

Helena: 0:59

I'm good. Thanks.

Ian: 1:00

Well, this is exciting. Like, I think this podcast is such a great idea. And I'm really excited to listen to the other guests that you have on here.

Helena: 1:07

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I've been recording some pretty exciting interviews. So I'm really excited to share them. Also. I had this idea about four years ago. And so it's nice to finally be doing it to be honest.

Ian: 1:21

Yeah, absolutely.

Helena: 1:22

It's just one of those things that you have in the back of your mind. And then like, yeah, to be honest, like impostor syndrome, COVID and then like, multiple moves, just mean that it has taken me this long, but so I'm very happy to finally be making it happen.

Ian: 1:40

Yeah, it's nice when you have those ideas that, they just sit in the back of your mind, but whenever they actually come to fruition, it's really rewarding. And you've had time to think it through more than if you just started it straightaway.

Helena: 1:53

That's true. I do think it's, it's much better than it would have been. Yeah. If I'd done it, then. Yeah, I'm coming at it from a slightly different angle now. Well, Ian, can you tell us who you are? And what you do in the coffee industry?

Ian: 2:08

Sure. Uh, who am I? That's a big question. In the coffee industry...

Helena: 2:15

Yeah, in the context of coffee. Who are you?

Ian: 2:18

I started Formative Coffee four years ago, it's a coffee shop in Westminster. We were a multi-roaster, we're still multi-roaster. But we also now roast our own coffee, for the last year or so. Starting to do a bit of wholesale a bit of ecommerce, but really kind of focused on quality. To be honest, it's a brand that is built around what I want to spend my money on in terms of coffee. I really hoped from the beginning that other people would share that. So it's been an interesting kind of experience over the four years. It's nice after COVID, having been in a very office dense area to see it really busy. And just kind of growing and going from strength to strength. But yeah, wasn't always the case, in years, two and three. So yeah, that's me. I do a bit of competition as well. So I've been involved in coffee competitions for a few years, particularly the Barista Championship and I'll be going to represent the UK at the World Barista Championship next month. So that'll be good fun.

Helena: 3:28

How ready do you feel for that?

Ian: 3:31

A part of me feels that I'm not. But I think the truth is that we've put in the preparation to be in a really good place at this time. I have more time to practice than I did for UK. And the routine is quite similar. We have picked a coffee or at least two coffees from which will choose one or possibly two. And yeah, yeah, so I feel I think, realistically, I feel quite ready. Yeah.

Helena: 4:05

It's exciting! I might actually be emceeing in Athens, so might see you there. Which would be really awesome.

Ian: 4:12

That'd be amazing. It would be so cool.

Helena: 4:14

Yeah. Um, so tell us about how you got into coffee in the first place. One of my favourite questions to ask anyone I meet is 'what did you want to be when you grew up'? And it's never I wanted to own a coffee shop. I wanted to be a barista.

Ian: 4:32

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Helena: 4:33

What did you want to be when you grow up?

Ian: 4:35

What did I want to be? It depends when you asked me. I think I think most realistically I wanted to be a lawyer, which is

Helena: 4:44

Oh fancy!

Ian: 4:46

In order to go to the university that I wanted to go to. I decided that I, it's not that I wanted to do this, but I decided to target the grades for a very difficult course to get into, not law, uh mathematics, at university. And that was basically very high grades. And that was my motivation. And then I actually started to like maths a bit. So I ended up in my A levels, kind of doing a lot more maths and forgetting about law. And then went and studied maths and computer science in London and after that, to be honest, I kind of fell into a job that if, you know, if I hadn't have decided to set this arbitrary goal, that if I hadn't just like said yes to easy opportunities, I wouldn't have ended up at a job that I hated. So I ended up doing it for a couple of years. Yeah, at a big bank. And that was just kind of misery. But the escape from my job was like leaving the office to go into a coffee shop. Just across the square from our main lobby. And that was like 10 or 15 minutes of solitude and kind of seeing people whowould smile at me, even though that was their job, and having a coffee. So I suppose like my journey, into understanding what coffee was, as in something beyond just like, you know, this is from a, you know, can of instant, or this is something that I can order in a cafe, to being something that can taste different depending on where it's from, and how it's processed or some other things. Like, that had been going on separately for a long time. I think understanding the cafe and understanding service and understanding the importance of kind of building relationships cafes had with their regulars was what really fascinated me. Like, there are specific cups of coffee, that play a part in that as well. But I think for most of us, if we tell a story about it being a light bulb moment, in truth, you know, our understanding of coffee evolves over time and is still evolving for both of us, I think.

Helena: 7:06

Yeah, I think I say a lot of the time that I think it could have very easily been like beer, or wine, or something similar, which have like similar communities to coffee that I could have fallen into and got really passionate about. So yeah, it's kind of a little bit by accident. But I'm definitely one of those people who will just like throw myself in completely. So once I had in my mind that it was coffee, and I was like, Okay, now I need to learn everything I can about. And then the more you learn, the more you realise you don't know

Ian: 7:45

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I feel probably my understanding anything! of my appreciation of my own knowledge of coffee, like is that the lowest point at the minute. Because you know how much you don't know. And, you know, I, to be honest, like the last couple of years, I haven't had a lot of time to, like develop professionally in that sense. So it's something that I really want to get back to because it like, there are so many facets of coffee, there are so many different ways of looking at the coffee from from seed to cup. There are like, so many people involved in so many processes. And so, so many stories, apart from the science of it. They are so fascinating, and I feel like it's so easy just to go day to day with no appreciation of it.

Helena: 8:39

Yeah, that's true. I think for a lot of people, that's what competitions do, it encourages them to kind of grow in their knowledge because it pushes you, you notice these things that you've never really paid much attention to before. Like, for me water is something that I like I have a basic understanding that filtered water is better. But that's just a rabbit hole I haven't jumped down yet. And I kind of dipped my toe in and was like, Whoa, there's so much I don't know, save that for another time! Yeah, it brings out all these little things that you realise that you don't really know much about.

Ian: 9:21

Yeah, I think like competition you know, obviously you've had your experience with Brewers recently, but I think competition, although it's very removed from what being a barista is, in some ways, in some ways, it's quite similar in that, like, I can be 90% of the way there to being a good competitor. But you know, the extra 10% takes a lot of work. And then the cafe is the same, you know, like, someone can come and work in the cafe and be like 90% of what it takes to be an amazing barista, but that 10% is really important. And that last 10% takes a lot of work. That's a strange kind of analogy. But like, you know, that whenever we're striving for that absolute quality, it's very hard to obtain. The closer you get to it, the harder it is.

Helena: 10:16

Yeah, I think for me, it definitely pointed out the areas, I mean, I felt like I kind of knew from the start, like which things I was going to find the hardest. Number one thing is just like talking and doing something at the same time. Number one. And then there was the, the one side of it I knew I didn't have to worry about was customer service. And that I mean, like, that was the one thing I scored the highest on, was customer service, like, way above any of my coffee scores. And I was like, Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. Because, like, the technical stuff and like, workflow and stuff. I've always been a really clumsy barista. I am just one of those people who's a bit goofy, and I'll spill some coffee and be like, Oops, sorry, I'll make it for you again, you know? So, like, I was like, well, I can't do that. So that's what I really need to work on. And it makes you work on those things that you don't love, and that you've just been going through life like not really needing to fix.

Ian: 11:13

Yeah so true.

Helena: 11:14

Yeah, um, also, I think it's, it's a very interesting emotional experience. I mean, it's a roller coaster, for sure. But also, like, teaches you how to be humble a little bit, and how to, like, lose, gracefully.

Ian: 11:39

Yeah, I think like, competitions is funny thing, like, I'm talking about humility. Because in one sense, we have to present ourselves as, like knowing a lot about something. But also, the reality is that we don't, you know, we kind of know the top level stuff, but we don't. And then when we don't win, it's kind of this strange thing where I've stood up and given I think, I think this is what's hard about whenever we don't do as well as we want. Because we stand up. And we say that we are implicitly the expert in this. And then the scores say, No, that was, you know, maybe satisfactory, or, you know, yeah, not quite good. So that's a really funny thing. But yeah, I think like, there are a lot, there are lots of ways that, you know, that your scores can be lower than you want. But it's very, very sobering, I think to, apart from like, you know, how your interactions with your peers are and how you compare to other people. Like, it's very sobering to see what judges write, or what those scores are quite like, the scores are, you know, they're, they're trying to create a range of scores. But yeah, it's whenever you see your score, something that is described, as, you know, for example, satisfactory or you know, not satisfactory, or whatever the case may be, or there's a defect, like those things can be like, really, really tough because you've spent so long, preparing.

Helena: 13:14

Yeah, that's so true. Um, do you have any ways that you keep yourself calm? Because you do you do seem very calm when you're competing.

Ian: 13:27

I mean, so I guess, like, I don't find the, well there are parts of competition I find stressful, but I don't find the presenting stressful. I find it quite fun. I mean, I still shake. Like there's this.

Helena: 13:43

Everyone shakes don't they! It's the adrenaline. It's the adrenaline.

Ian: 13:47

Yeah. Yeah. But I think like, I mean, maybe Worlds will be different. Like, if things go wrong, I get a little bit stressed. But I think like, to be honest, for me competition, like I feel quite comfortable in it now. I think that's quite a difficult point to get to, but I feel quite comfortable that if things go wrong, I can fix them. Which has happened, the last four times have competed. Like fix those things to some extent. So like, yeah, I don't know. But like, like, I think that, like, I can come across quite calm. But I don't think that's always actually like the case outside of like competition, like, I think it's taken me a long time to get here. It's like, I think that now that person that people see, especially on stage, which is where a lot of people see you, like that's not necessarily who I am off stage. So that's quite a difficult thing. And it's not necessarily the person I've always been like, there's a lot of imposter syndrome. There's a lot of like, you know, I'm saying a speech where I, I kind of claim to have some knowledge of roasting, when I have none. You know, like, all these things are kind of very strange about competition, like we present ourselves as, you know, calm and composed. And to some extent we can be, but also as an expert, there's this, there's this whole thing of contradictions. Like, I guess that's kind of one of the things of putting yourself on a stage like there are going to be contradictions, because none of us well, almost none of us are actually like exactly what we're presenting, or presenting a version of ourselves. Yeah, it's a weird thing.

Helena: 15:45

It is, a performance isn't it? It's a performance. And I kind of think of it as like, going into the role of confident coffee preson just for a few minutes? And then afterwards, I usually need to go outside and just like 'ahh', okay.

Ian: 16:01

Oh, yeah. So much adrenaline.

Helena: 16:07

There is, I mean, and then you just crash after, I think, once it finally wears out. But I think it's really interesting that you mentioned imposter syndrome, because it's something I was going to ask you about. Because I think a lot of people would see you and where you're at now and not really think that that's something you have to deal with.

Ian: 16:25

I think like I suppose it's something even outside of coffee

Helena: 16:25

Yeah, but at least you're self aware. That's the I've dealt with for dealt with, well haven't really dealt with it... first step!

Ian: 16:44

Now. It's taken a long time to here. But like, like a university I guess I felt at times very out of my depth. I don't think I was, but I felt that way. And yeah, you know, like, I'm from from the middle of nowhere. And I, like I moved to London. And even now, like, I feel very different to, like, a lot of the people that I meet, I find it very, very difficult to to meet new people. Like because I don't know, like, I'm from somewhere where everyone knew everyone. And I'm like, I'm not an extrovert. Most of the time, I guess I'm an ambivert. Like, so I moved to London. And yeah, university was difficult, like, really difficult, like, lots of incredibly smart people. And yeah, incredibly hard working people, which I was not. So I guess like through that, there was a bit of, yeah, I felt a lot of impostor syndrome. And like, I was a lot of the time pretending that I was okay.

Helena: 18:02

Yeah, I mean, we all do that. There's a little bit of fake it till you make it isn't there. But there's also, sometimes it goes a little bit too far. I know that I have a tendency to do that. I fake it till I burn out, basically. And then I'm like, oh, I need to deal with this now. CI've just exhausted myself by pretending that I'm fine and that I know what I'm doing. Yeah, it's finding that balance.

Ian: 18:27

I think the reality is people see through it as well after a while. And if you don't ask for for help, in whatever it is you're doing, it's going to be a struggle. You know, we are all, none of us is perfect. We all do stupid things. And we're all like, we all start at one point and hopefully learn a few things. But yeah, like work was the same for me. And like, when I started in coffee, like, I was a little bit the same. And it's still the same today. Like, like, I'm always, I think, no matter what point we're at, we always know that there's more to know. And that makes it really difficult. You know, to stand on a stage and say we're the expert of something or to, you know, even to like start a podcast, right? It took you a little bit of time. I'm sure some of that was at the time like, you know,'who am I to do this'? 'All these people, what will they think of me'?

Helena: 19:29

Yeah exactly that. And I think a lot of it for me was like, Oh, I really want to do it right. I want to do it perfectly. I want to make sure that you know, I'm taking all these things into consideration because I want to be respectful and so much so that it scared me away from doing anything. Because it was like well, if it's not right, you know? What if someone disagrees with something that I say or you know, especially, I mean, this is a rabbit hole, but especially with like the rise of like, cancel culture, right? I think we're so much more scared now, just in general, that one small thing that we say or post online or something will be spun out of context, and everyone will turn against us. Yeah. It's terrifying.

Ian: 20:17

I mean, like, I agree, I think it can be really complicated, I think especially around like issues of mental health as well, like, you know, I think, you know, I and to an extent we, as a coffee community in the UK are exceptionally privileged, you know, each of us in different ways. Yeah, I'm very privileged. But I don't think that necessarily negates, like hearing one another's experiences. Like they're different. But I think there's still value and empathy, like no matter what our position, insharing those experiences. And, you know, I think that can take time to actually build up to a point where you're ready to launch something like this, but I think at some point, you just kind of need to, in my mind, this is a picture of competition, you just need to like, jump off a cliff and build a plane while you are falling. You know, like you make it you make it work. And like there can be a fear, a fear of failure, or of kind of repercussions. But I think like, like, for me, I started our coffee brand, which was, like, what I wanted to buy into, and the other people were buying into it, and I knew that some people wouldn't. Now, you know, the fact that we don't serve very large coffees is very offensive to people. But, you know, on the scale of things, it's not that offensive. And obviously talking about things like mental health, is quite brave, I think like, but also really important in an industry where, across the board, it's not really discussed well.

Helena: 22:03

And it's really common as well, I think a lot of us end up in coffee, because we go through something in our lives, which means that we need to take a different path, and then we work as a barista for a bit and then some of us get super into it and end up staying. Yeah, I think like, it's actually so common, pretty much everyone I talk has some experience of it. So actually, yeah, we've all got a lot in common in that way. When you were talking, I was just thinking that most of the people that I really get on with in the coffee industry are the ones who recognise that, that they don't know everything. Do you know what I mean, like, I think that the the ones of us who want to keep learning, and we want to learn from each other, and we don't walk around professing our opinions as fact. Because I think people like that can really isolate everyone else. And unfortunately, there's like a danger for people to do that. And I think some of that comes from people not taking specialty coffee seriously. Like consumers, you know, the public. And so we think, Oh, well, if we take ourselves really seriously, then they will take us seriously too, but actually, we just end up isolating people.

Ian: 23:24

Yeah, absolutely. And there are some people who I really look up to in coffee, who, you know, especially when I met them for the first time, for example, like, there's this big wall. And they are presented as the expert like that's what they're presenting themselves, as, you know, it can be kind of almost argumentative, whenever you're just trying to have a conversation. But I think like, like, at least for me, if like, I what I like about coffee or about specialty coffee is the spirit of collaboration that there can be beyond what's maybe commercially, like, beneficial from time to time. And like the idea that we can work together and that we can help one another out. Because, like, it doesn't take a lot to bring someone from liking coffee to loving it. But it takes like, actually showing empathy and kindness and trying to work with someone to help them understand what it is that we're trying to hopefully build collectively. So yeah, that's, uh, yeah, I think I kind of agree with what you're saying. But also, like, I found a lot of people that initially, whenever I've started to get to know them, they're very much like walls up, I'm the expert. But like over time, I don't know if maybe it's trust, maybe they trust that you're not going to laugh at them. And maybe that's because of some experiences that they've had. Especially where they've been looked down upon. Over time those relationships can change a little bit, you know.

Helena: 25:04

That's true. Some people just have have their walls up a little bit higher. You just have to be patient with them.

Ian: 25:11

Yeah. I don't have a lot of patience all the time.

Helena: 25:15

Do you not?

Ian: 25:18

Depends on the day....

Helena: 25:21

I wanted to ask you a little bit about this new thing that you're doing, Better Coffee Jobs. So it's like an online platform for people to advertise jobs in the industry, right?

Ian: 25:34

It's not yet fully thought out. But I guess like, so there are a few things. I'm a bit frustrated as an employer about the idea that, like, I would have to advertise a job at my cafe, which does things a little bit differently to like, maybe 80% of the specialty market. And that I have to pay for that. And then I get lots of applicants who are not necessarily like the kind of applicants that we're looking for. But also, I miss lots of applicants that I get who instead just applied by Instagram. So I guess like, what I'm trying to foster firstly, is like a smaller community of baristas or cafe managers or roasters who will follow this platform that are looking for jobs that like that, say, a particular segment of specialty coffee, the kind of hopefully higher end segment but also like, I think, in the UK, we have this really, this is a longer term goal. We have really complicated employer, employee relationship and coffee. Like I feel like I mean, I'm not like holding myself up, as you know, the most virtuous employer, I've made lots of mistakes. But like, I feel like, especially as baristas, there can be a lot of advantage taken, a lot of lack of clarity around what a job description is going to be, how much you're going to be paid, whether you're going to be paid your lunch break, what holiday actually means, you know, what benefits are going to be offered to you, you know, what kind of progression opportunities there are. So, I mean, like, for a long time, I've looked at things like the Living Wage Foundation, for example, which pushes for basically, higher wages in what they might view as the kind of lower paid sectors of the UK economy. And I think, I think that in time, there is an opportunity for us to build something, it isn't perfect, because we can't go in and like monitor every business. But we can certainly build something which is in a similar way to Living Wage Foundation, like maybe commits employers to a sort of pledge. So they pledge to, for example, pay a living wage, but also to, you know, actually publish what third pay rates are to a certain amount of holiday, or X, Y, or Z, depending on on what the consensus is among our future users. So what is actually necessary? Like there are so many toxic workplaces. You know, some of that's deliberate on the part of employers, but a lot of it's just kind of failure to put in place good systems or to be specific upfront about what's required. I feel like just sometimes more information can be better. I don't want to negate anyone's experience who has been mistreated. But I think like there's an opportunity for us to kind of build something that's better. And I don't think, like I think they're these little, not going to call easy, it's a lot of work, but there are these low hanging fruit like kind of trying to bring employers to gather around better conditions, we should be trying to tackle. The industry is still immature, but we're at a point now where companies have enough money and enough kind of notion of corporate social responsibility where they should be starting to look at these things. But that's kind of where I see it going. But we'll see.

Helena: 29:44

I think it's great. The thing about information, I think it's such a key thing like that there's just often a lack of communication. Like you said, it's often not because they don't care. It's just people who don't necessarily know exactly the best way of going about things. And I think also in the industry, we often buy into this whole 'one big happy family' independent business thing, which is great, but it doesn't mean that we can get away from having complaint procedures, HR, you know, like proper rights for employees, because at the end of the day, they are employees and employers. And we can't just pretend they're not.

Ian: 30:36

And like, the company that I worked for as a barista, it did a lot of things well, but it always kind of troubled me the fact that there like, there were hundreds of employees, or at least 100 employees that say, and it kind of troubled me that people would move to London, would start work, and the only people they knew were fellow employees. And there was this kind of, you know, family culture, and kind of, I guess, like hustle kind of culture and kind of evolutionary culture, almost like you have to perform. I think all of those things, like can lead really quickly to burnout and like gaslighting.

Helena: 31:26

Yeah. And if someone leaves like, Is that is that it, then? Have they lost all of their friends and support system?

Ian: 31:33

Yeah, exactly. Like, it's so scary. I mean, it wasn't for me, because like, I'd had a job. And I'd lived in London for a while. But I think it's scary for a lot of people to actually leave a situation where all their friends are.

Helena: 31:44

I've definitely overstayed in jobs, just because I didn't want to leave my friends. And also, yeah, that fear of, of not knowing the right way to go about it. There's so much miscommunication about notice periods, and things like that, as well. So are you planning to do some research to kind of like, hear from the community about what they want?

Ian: 32:06

I think for now, what I want to do is understand what people want from a job advert. Yeah, like, I had a good conversation with someone who said, Well, you know, okay, you're going to ask for all these things but like, if you don't understand, like, why employees are leaving, then you're not solving the problem. But like, I kind of, I mean, I disagree. I think that, like, we have to start somewhere. And, like, I don't think that, like I can run a jobs board and, or run a jobs board alone, and suddenly, you know, everyone's happy in their job. But I think that if we can start to push for, you know, mandatory listing of what the wage is, for example, rather than'competitive'.

Helena: 32:56

Yeah, stop wasting people's time, you know, job applications take so long. Yeah, so many times people do that and then they find out it's a wage they can't live on. And it's

Ian: 33:06

Yeah, absolutely, it's awful. But like, so starting to like, it's not good for anyone. understand what people want from a job ad, that is feasible to give in a, you know, 15 to 20 minute form for an employer to fill outand like, we can't ask for the world, but we can ask for more. So I think that's where I'm going to start, is understanding what people want to know on an application form. And in time, I hope that we can build something that's a bit of a kind of broader community, rather than just job adverts. I think that's a, you know, multi year movement. And I'm not kidding myself, but we can't change things in a year. Like, I think it's like a decade long thing. But I think like, what, what is specialty coffee, right? Specialty Coffee, basically, is irrelevant once it's left the roastery. Like, you know, it's an irrelevant phrase, you know, what is it? Is it a community? Kind of but not really. Is it like, the quality of coffee that you're serving, kind of. So we need to, I think we need to start being better at communicating what we're offering to customers. And part of that is actually well, how do you treat your staff? Like, how do you source your coffee? You know, like, there are some really big brands who, notionally are all about like, treating people well, but the people that they have the most impact over are their employees. And I know that their employees are treated terribly. Like there's something really wrong there. So I think like this is, this is something that's so important. It's important. I think that we over time begin to make it possible for people to speak about their experiences openly. And I'm not endorsing cancel culture. But I think like, the reality is that if the same problems keep happening somewhere, and if it's systemic, like, those are issues that an employer should be looking at. And if they're not, like, there has to be some repercussion.

Helena: 35:18

Yeah. What reason do they have to improve their system if you know, they're able to just fill those jobs back up again immediately?

Ian: 35:27

Yeah absolutely. So my thinking long term, is some sort of pledge, some sort of like membership. And then, like, I don't want to make like Glassdoor for coffee where you like, review your employer, but I think like, you know, if, if there are, for example, complaints, like we would maybe review that. So, yeah, I think that might make sense. There's a lot more thought that needs to go into that. It was, it's something in one way that I've thought about for a long time, but I just started this jobs board, like in a couple of hours, because I needed to post a job. And I haven't really advertised it to any employers yet. But we'll get there.

Helena: 36:14

I mean, you'll have to start it now, because we're talking about it.

Ian: 36:22

Yeah, exactly. I hear what you're saying, like about it taking you years to finally start your podcast. I think like, it's something I've thought about over and over again, for way too much time. But at some point, I mean, the shop is the same, like at some point, you just have to do it.

Helena: 36:42

Yeah. And if you tell enough people then a little bit of pressure. It's good. So if people like have ideas, or they have something they can contribute. How can they do that?

Ian: 37:00

I mean, at some point, I will actually create some sort of formal feedback mechanism for people to submit ideas, but yeah, just message me on Instagram. Either like the Formative Coffee account or my personal account. Ian underscore Kissick or something. There aren't many Ian Kissick's in the world, it's not that hard to find.

Helena: 37:22

'Or something'! So for Worlds, I hear that you are doing another bingo night with VA...

Ian: 37:32

Yes, indeed.

Helena: 37:34

When is that? It's soon right?

Ian: 37:36

This Thursday I guess the 18th, yeah.

Helena: 37:39

Oh, that is soon.

Ian: 37:41

It will be a lot of fun.

Helena: 37:42

Yeah, so if people are around Camden they should pop by!

Ian: 37:49

They should. There will be fun.

Helena: 37:52

And prizes

Ian: 37:53

And coffee. So yeah, I would go!

Helena: 37:58

Right, let's play a game. Yay.

Ian: 38:01

I think I like this game from how you described it.

Helena: 38:07

Yeah, it's nice and easy. So I'm going to name a bunch of things. And you have to tell me whether you think that they are underrated or overrated.

Ian: 38:16

I how I know what they are.

Helena: 38:18

I mean, I'm assuming you'll know what they are, there's nothing that niche. And then you just need to tell me, well, you don't have to tell me why, but you can if you want to give your reasoning or feel like you want to justify a slightly controversial opinion. But also you don't have to, you can just leave it at that and let people wonder. So, okay, number one, underrated or overrated? Tiramisu.

Ian: 38:48

Underrated

Helena: 38:49

Underrated. I love tiramisu. If it's on the menu anywhere I am I'm like, I didn't even want food but I'm getting a tiramisu.

Ian: 38:57

Yeah, same. I'm the same. Yeah, even a bad one.

Helena: 39:01

Even a bad one hit's the spot. Have you ever made it?

Ian: 39:04

I haven't but one of my staff made one recently and it was exceptionally good.

Helena: 39:09

Was it? Can you send me the recipe? Get them to send me the recipe? Yeah I'll ask her. Yeah, great. Well put it in. Put it in the episode description. Credit them for it. Okay, underrated or overrated, Nescafe Gold Blend.

Ian: 39:31

Underrated. But here's why. Now it must be, what age am I? It must be at least 15 years since I've had it. Okay, dissolved in hot milk on the stove. It's quite good. With a lot of sugar. If you just add hot water? Yeah, I'm not recommending that you just add hot water I don't think that's very good, but it has potential, remade into a kind of some sort of...

Helena: 40:04

... different coffee flavoured drink. Yeah, I agree.

Ian: 40:08

Yeah. Generic coffee flavour. Yeah.

Helena: 40:11

I like a bit of like instant hot chocolate powder in there, to sweet it up.

Ian: 40:17

Yeah that's a good idea. Very, very controversial opinions coming out on this!

Helena: 40:22

Yeah, I don't care. I drink instant coffee like maybe once a week and I enjoy it. There, I've said.

Ian: 40:32

Guilty pleasure.

Helena: 40:33

Yeah not even that guilty. Okay, last one, underrated or overrated, winning the UK barista championships

Ian: 40:43

Overrated.

Helena: 40:44

Overrated?

Ian: 40:46

Obviously, it's something that a lot of people want to do. But I mean it's a game, right? Yeah, these things are games. And I guess, like, it's, I like doing it because I like the game. Like, I find it a lot of fun. It's like a hobby. That's what makes it easier.

Helena: 41:08

That's what makes you able to do it five times in a row. Yeah.

Ian: 41:12

Yeah. I mean, it's a bit painful as well at times, but it's like, I don't play football. But like, even if I lost the game of football, I would probably keep playing. I don't know. That's a really bad analogy. But yeah, it's a hobby. But you know, what, what does it actually mean that I won? Basically, that I had a tasty coffee and followed the rules. That's more or less it. I mean, like, obviously, lots of other people had tasty coffees and followed the rules. But like, does it mean that I'm a better barista than other people who were you know, second to sixth? No. Like, I'm a terrible barista.

Helena: 41:55

Yeah but you won in the game. I like calling it a game. Yeah.

Ian: 42:01

If I win monopoly, yeah, if I win monopoly it doesn't mean that I'm like, the best capitalist. You know, I think what it's good for, there are lots of things it's good for. And Claire, every time she speaks about this points out, like how good it is with helping you to organise your thoughts and present them in a logical way. And that's, that's yeah. And being able to have confidence to like speak in public and multitasking, and have lots of problem solving skills, like all those things are useful. But whether you win or not, you still gain those skills. Yeah. And like, I think, I think like, I would have been really disappointed if I hadn't made it to finals this year, because I put a lot of expectation on myself. But, like, winning has it changed my life? No, it means like, I've just spent a lot more money and a lot more time to go to Athens. And hopefully, hopefully do well there. Like, I think, yeah, he's overrated. Yeah. I would still keep doing it. But yeah.

Helena: 43:06

Do you think you'll compete again then, in the BCs?

Ian: 43:12

Yeah I mean, yeah, I think so. I'm thinking, so I have an Irish passport. I've been thinking about competing in Ireland. Yeah, but we'll see.

Helena: 43:24

That would be fun.

Ian: 43:25

Yeah, I think that I mean, in the in the very, very likely event that I don't win Worlds. Yeah, I probably will compete again. Because, I mean, I have an idea. Yeah, that's a better idea than this year's, it all starts with an idea.

Helena: 43:46

Oh, you gotta do it then. Yeah, you have to?

Ian: 43:50

Well I've said it now so

Helena: 43:51

Yeah, yeah. Well, you haven't said what the idea is, do you want to share it with everyone?

Ian: 43:57

Do I?

Helena: 43:58

No spoilers.

Ian: 44:00

We can, I will tell you what it is. Because, you know, like, I mean, if anyone else does it, like it's gonna be obvious that

Helena: 44:08

yeah, we'll just refer them back to this. 'Stole that from Ian!'

Ian: 44:14

Last year, we came across this phenomenal coffee. Absolutely fantastic. And it tasted in the cup, like a Negroni. And I thought a lot about this and thought, what is it about it? And it was the quality of the bitterness. So like the the idea that I had for a routine this year that we didn't really have time to execute properly was basically it starts with like, 'we need to have a conversation about bitterness', right? Like specialty coffee, we shun bitterness, but like if you're looking for a balanced cup, like quality bitterness can be a big part of that. So like what if we serve a coffee that's like low to medium acidity, medium sweetness and like, medium bitterness, instead of like being the inverted version, so that's something that like, I quite like. And I think like, that's an important conversation to have as processing improves. And as we start to mature as an industry, like we can have good bitterness, like it's a key part of coffee. And it's more inclusive of a lot more of the non specialty drinking populace of the UK as well. So, yeah, that's the idea.

Helena: 45:26

I love it. Wow. Great. I felt like I've just got exclusive scoop now. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and chatting to me. It's been great.

Ian: 45:39

It's been a pleasure.

Helena: 45:40

I'm really excited to share it with everyone. And if people want to keep up with you and see how you do in Athens, where can they find you?

Ian: 45:51

I mean, I'm really bad at social media. What was it? Ian underscore Kissick? It's if you type Ian Kissick in or if you go to Formative Coffee all one word. Yeah. On there, you'll find me from there. That's the best way.

Helena: 46:09

And people should go to Formative Coffee! Well, thanks so much for coming on. Bye Ian!

Ian: 46:16

Bye!

Helena: 46:20

I really loved chatting to Ian, and I hope that you guys enjoyed listening to it too. If you want to hear more coffee competition stuff, then I'd highly recommend the Hello Judges Podcast. Ian was on there recently chatting about his prep for the upcoming World Barista Championships in Athens in June. So definitely check that out. I'll put a link in the episode description along with a bunch of other stuff that we've mentioned. If you enjoyed this episode of Big Slurp Energy, that makes me really happy and I hope that your follow and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on. You can also follow the podcast on Instagram. It's at Big Slurp Energy. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourselves and slurp some good coffee.